Category Archives: Theology Thoughts

Is the Church To Police Society? Part 6

In answering the question “is the church to police society” we have looked examples from history and the Bible. Drawing from these examples, I believe we can state that:

  • Biblical:
    • God doesn’t want a physical, political kingdom in this age
    • God allows for individual choice between good and evil
  • History:
    • Christendom did not work
    • Retreating into ‘holy-huddles” also did not work

Where does that leave us?

In my view, these examples show us that the Church should not be trying to force society to adhere to Biblical morality by passing laws to stop the ‘sinful’ behavior. The end result has always been a nation and a people that are disenchanted with Christianity while claiming to know God.  Or in others words, Christendom always creates nominal believers who claim to be Christians but who do not live it or understand it. [@more@]

Yet what does this mean for us practically, in the United States of America?

It means that we, as the Church, need to understand the difference between human rights abuse and morality.  Issues that concern human rights should be regulated and governed by all nations to protect human lives. A prime example of this would be abortion.  Abortion is murder and, therefore, is a human rights issue and should be stopped (with the exception of extreme life/death medical issues with the mother, in which case the family would choose who lived and who died).

On the other side, when an issue arises in our nation that is NOT a human rights abuse but is contrary to Biblical morality, the Church needs to allow for individual choice and not try to outlaw the sin.  Think about it, if God allowed the human race to have individual choice between good and evil, shouldn’t the Church allow individuals to have the same choice?

Continued tomorrow…

Is the Church To Police Society? Part 5

The million dollar question becomes: “How does this third view of the kingdom changes things?”

It changes everything because “now” God wants full control over every area of your life. No longer can we justify spiting our lives into “secular” and “sacred” bubbles – either we under his reign and rule or we are not.

As I was pondering this question over the weekend, the judges of Israel came to mind.

To briefly recap, after Moses died, the leadership of the Jews fell to Joshua (Moses’ right hand man). Joshua was a military leader who led the people through a series of military campaigns to conquer the land promised to Abraham. When Joshua died, the Lord choose not to set up one individual as the main leader of the Israelites, but allowed each of the 12 tribes to rule themselves – thus ending the centralized government of the time.

Enter the judges.[@more@]

These guys and gals were raised up by God at different times and places as the need arose. Otherwise, God was happy being the Lord and King of all the people Israel. It is noteworthy to me that when the Israelites reconstructed a centralized government, God was unhappy with the people. For some reason, God was happier ruling His people through a lose network of judges, prophets, and priests then He was in ruling through a “royal” individual.

Or to put in another way, God’s original plan for the nation of Israel was to rule each person and tribe Himself. Yet the people of the land wanted to set up a political kingdom where morality was guarded through the kingly family.

In hindsight, we see that this didn't work out too well as the royal family had some crooked branches. (pun intended) Wink

Continued tomorrow…

Todd Bentley: Lakeland, FL Revival

I know I'm a bit late on this post as everything hit the fan a few weeks ago….but I figure better late than never. Undecided

For those of you who don't know, Todd Bentley's wife has left him due to "unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff." (freshfire.ca)  This, of course, caused a huge ripple throughout Christian circles as the Lakeland, Fl revival was promoted big time around the world.

I was browsing the Charisma web-forum about this issue when I say the below quote:

This proves that this was a sham from the get-go. The Holy Spirit does not operate alongside such unrepentent sin. (by jalnor)

Sadly enough, no one in the forum said anything about this statement or the misguided worldview from which it comes. The worldview is that only those people with perfect and mature lives can be used by God to minister to people. This makes me SICK!!!!! [@more@]

We are all called to be ministers of the Gospel – to be used by the Holy Spirit to heal the sick, cleanse leapers, raise the dead, ect – as He deems. Alexander Venter put it this way in “Doing Church”

We dare not restrict ministry to the pure, the mature, the leaders and the ‘anointed man of God’. Ministry is all about mercy, grace and compassion – it can be a little messy.

While the fall of Todd Bentley is tough for the church enlarge, we must keep from going to the extreme of claiming that God does not use people with sin in their lives. Instead, let us live in the light and stop trying to hide our failures & sins; if we are struggling – we are struggling.

“Is the Church To Police Society?” Part 4

Over the past fifty years, modern scholarship has come to recognize a third view of the Kingdom of God. This view takes into account the mindset of the first century Jews as detailed in the writings between the two Testaments. This may sound like a small detail, but, as all meaning is context depended, it has made quite an impact upon the Church.

No longer is the “kingdom of heaven” described purely as a physical, political land or as individual salvation. It is the realized eschatology of the reign and rule of God in our lives.

The age to come that was prophesied by the men of old has come into the world today. Yet at the same time, we are still waiting for the fulfillment of God’s promise. Today is the time between the ages; a time when we see glimpses of the Kingdom in between the darkness of war.

In regards to the question of whether the Church should police society, this third view of the kingdom changes everything:

  • If the kingdom of God is not a physical, political land, then Christendom must die.
  • If the Kingdom of God is not just individual salvation, then the Church must refocus it’s outlook on life.

Continued tomorrow…

“Is the Church To Police Society?” Part 3

Jesus was faced with this same issue as he walked the deserts of Judah. Rome had conquered the Middle East and was busy spreading it’s view of morality or lack thereof. The faithful Believers responded by either retreating into the wastelands and building ‘moral’ forts to keep out the negative influences. Or they joined the growing political movement of regulating society’s morals through “laws” and “regulations”.

The Carpenter from Galilee called them both on the carpet: why do you white wash your tombs? Or clean the outside of a mold infected cup?

The Man called for a deeper change – a change of water from salt to fresh. This change can not be forced or regulated. It has to come from a life changing meeting with the Creator of the Universe….

The interesting part is no one would agree with the above statement. In fact, the Church over the years has used similar statements as a presupposition to their view of the kingdom of heaven. Jesus’ followers, who heard him first hand, took his statements and looked towards a physical, political kingdom that regulated the morality of society based upon the teachings of Moses, the prophets and Jesus.

Yet, as I ponder the question of whether or not the Church is to police society in the area of morality, I can’t help but wonder what was the meaning of Jesus’ teachings? How would he respond to this question in this country at this time?

Continued Monday….

“Is the Church To Police Society?” Part 2

The next step in history was the social revolution of the mid-nineteen hundreds with large portions of the population throwing off the rules of society and embracing anarchy. This upheaval in the moral fabric of the nation disturbed the delicate balance between the two views of the kingdom of God in the Church. In the end, the first view of Christendom prevailed led by coalitions of church leaders actively influencing the formation of governmental policies.

Yet something happened that the Church was not prepared for: the globe shrunk.

With a rise in immigration and the beginning of the digital age, new ideas and religions flooded into Western society like the Mighty Mississippi after a monsoon. Christendom rang the bells of war and began to build retaining walls throughout society. These walls were the Church’s view of morality that all people, believers and non-believers, should follow. Only the water did not stop. More sand was thrown on the walls as the Church fought to save Christendom and it’s position as society’s moral leader.[@more@]

For the first time in eighteen hundred years, the Church in the West is fighting against a foreign worldview without the aid of the sword or the threat of excommunication. The result has been the death of Christendom in Europe and the fatal wounding of Christendom in the United States. The Church now faces some huge questions:

  • Does it continue to fight on behalf of Christendom?
  • Does it re-adopt the second view of the kingdom and focus again on the personal salvation of others?

Or perhaps is there a third view of the kingdom of God that will help guide the Church into this semi-new period of history?

Continued tomorrow…

"Is the Church To Police Society?" Part 1

I have been pondering this question for some time with mixed feelings. On one hand, the Lord has given us some clear morality guidelines. Yet on the other hand, how far to we push to make others around us obey those guidelines?

Solomon once said that “what has been done will be done again” – so it with this question.

Starting around the time of Constantine, the Church adopted the position that it was called to police morality in society through the control of government. The view persistent for many, many years as the Pope in Rome ruled Europe with threats of excommunication and death by torture for all those who disagreed. The result of this view was the creation of “Christendom” – or, in other words, the creation of the kingdom of God on earth through which mankind would usher in the millennium age of Christ.[@more@]

As history continued it’s forward march, this view of Christendom continued to dominate western society. Only now instead of being ruled by the Pope, the Church was ruled by various kings and queens in their respective countries. However, we also see a different view slowly growing in the remote parts of Europe. This view said that the kingdom of God referred only to one’s personal salvation; therefore, the Church should stop trying to “rule” or police society and focus solely on preaching the gospel.

Growing up in a “free nation”, the church in the United States of America adopted this second view of society for the first few hundred years. Everything the Church did was focused on “winning souls” for Christ – to the extent that life afterwards was either forgotten about or heavily regulated. In a fit of irony, the areas of the nation where the church heavily regulated the lives of it’s people, a form of Christendom emerged with the local pastor at it’s head.

Continued tomorrow…
 

The Vineyard Legacy by Bert Waggoner

I discovered a lecture by Bert Waggoner, the US AVC National Director, entitled "The Vineyard Legacy" – given at the 2008 Northwest Leaders Gathering – Vancouver, WA. In this session, Waggoner pretty covers everything we have been discussing in this thread!! If you the time, I would highly recommend downloading and listening to it!!

Here are a few highlights from Waggoner's lecture:

  • The Kingdom of God is our legacy. It is who we are and it is the mark we must leave behind for the church and the world.
  • Waggoner commented on his concerns that the Vineyard movement is losing it's focus on the Kingdom of God. These concerns came out of three experiences:[@more@]

1) He was recently in India speaking to the Vineyard pastors about the Kingdom. During this time, five pastors came up and asked what was the Kingdom of God as they had never heard about it…..

2) When he sign a document promoting a two state solution to the Israel / Palestine issue, several Vineyard leaders/pastors came to him disagreeing based upon a dispensational theology.

3) The Vineyard Movement is a center set where people are "judged" (my word) on if they are moving towards to center (ie. Jesus and the Kingdom), not on where they are currently located. This is different from a bounded set where folks are judged on being "in" or "out".

Being a center set, the Vineyard makes room for different people, ideas, and cultures. However, more and more leaders are coming to Waggoner wanting him to set more rules on what's a Vineyard and what's not. Meaning that folks are wanting to go from a Kingdom center set to a bounded set….

  • In discussing his concerns about losing the legacy of the Kingdom of God, Waggoner spoke about the danger of losing the Kingdom. He did this by walking through the Parable of the Sower – mainly that if we fail to understand the Kingdom, satan will take it away.  We have to fully understand the Kingdom so it can be applied to one's life.

Three ways the Kingdom can be taken away:

  1. A hard heart; allowing satan to steals it away. This can be a theological hard heart. (on the path)
  2. Surface emotion responses based upon experience but no theological framework rocky ground)
  3. We can get caught up in life and forget about the Kingdom (thorns)
  • Waggoner ended this selection with the comment that "practice without theology goes bad; theology without practice is dry…and is usually destructive."
  • Why is it such a big deal?  Because it was and is the central message of Jesus. After Jesus rose from the grave, he spent 40 days teaching the disciples about the Kingdom of God. This was his LAST days on earth and he spent it teaching on the Kingdom!

As such, we must:

1) We must go through a theological conversion and fully understand the Kingdom of God

2) We must make time to understand the Kingdom. If we don't constantly seek to understand and teach the Kingdom of God, we will be overcome by the cares of this world (ie. work, family, ministry, ect)

3) We need to embrace the full message of the Kingdom and how it transforms society, creation, hearts of men, ect

Relationships

As I was reading “Doing Church” by Alexander Venter I came across a passage that made me stop and think:

“Doing” should really come from our sense of ‘being’ and ‘being’ should come from our relatedness – to the Creator of the universe for starters! The disciples were with Jesus, then He sent them out to preach (Mk 3:14). Paul teaches ‘being’ and then ‘doing’ through the body metaphor (1Cor 12:12). For example, a finger finds out who it is and what it does by virtue of where it is joined and to whom it belongs.

If I ‘hang in’ relationships long enough, and yield to those I connected with I will discover who I really am (not what I have decided I am). I will then be free to be my real self and will be empowered to fulfill what I stand for – through the relationships.

I have found very few people who have the faith for this, who take the time and trouble to entrust themselves to relationships long enough to allow themselves to reach their full potential in God. Church really is a community of birth, discovery, growth, equipping and empowerment – through the quality and longevity of our relationships.”

[@more@]The longer I know Him, the more I’m convinced that we draw near Him not by studying the Bible, attending church, listening to worship music or anything else. We draw near to Him by abiding in Him. Practically, at least in my experience, this means talking to Him drive down the road, as I work through out the day – asking Him for help when I lost a pencil or a bolt…. It’s the realization that He wants to have a relationship with us beyond the hour service on Sunday or the 15 minutes a day reading one’s Bible.

“If I ‘hang in’ relationships long enough, and yield to those I connected with I will discover who I really am (not what I have decided I am). I will then be free to be my real self and will be empowered to fulfill what I stand for – through the relationships. “

O’ how many times have I wanted to cut bait and run!  To go to a new town or job and start anew; to not have the baggage of yesterday hanging over me. Yet, it is through these very relationships that growth comes. (Granted, sometimes it does help to go to a new location before you ‘hang in’ a relationship!) Tongue out

Thanks for the Help & I didn't get into trouble

What a headline! Tongue out

First things first – that you all for your help with an anniversary ideas.  There was a TON of great suggestions… however, I’m going to go with:

Giving her an electrical toothbrush

What do you think? Embarassed

I spent a lot of time and effort thinking this one through – and I’m sure it’s a winner!!!

Yeah – I’ll let you know how it works….. (if I’m still breathing and able to typeUndecided[@more@]


The second item to be handled is the interview with the Sojourners Magazine:

It went very well – the lady asked me what political issues concerned me the most, and then she let me talk for 20 minutes. Yelp – she didn’t even interpret once! Which, honestly, was quite disturbing:

  • Did she fall a sleep?
  • Did she have a heart attack? I was really wishing I had undergone CPR training from Coast2Coast in Richmond Hill at this point.
  • Was she faking a heart attack?
  • Maybe while she was faking a heart attack, she had a real heart attack…
  • Was the phone even on?
  • Can you hear me now?

As wild as all this is, do you know what the most disturbing / scary part of the whole interview was?  I stopped talking after 20 minutes!!!!

Horrors of horrors!!! I must be getting old!!! I can no longer talk for more the 20 minutes with out pausing for a breath of air (granted it was a yellow air quality day…) or a drink of water!  Grrrrrrrrrrrr   My life is no longer valid. I must take matters into my own hands – this MUST be corrected!

Right after I give Em her electrical toothbrush.